gelato problems- melting too quickly

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1. What temperature is the cabinet that the sorbet served at?2. Please give me some information on the stabiliser used.

Your mix has a FPDF of around 25-assuming stabiliser does not contain sugars. This will give a  hard sorbet if served at -18C. With the amount of stabiliser added I would expect this to take some time to get soft! 

Commercial sorbet stabilisers should reduce melting rate hence my query re the stabiliser used.

Your mix is also slightly too sweet! You need to reduce the sucrose a little and replace it with dextrose. This will also make the sorbet softer and may increase melting rate if the stabiliser is not changed.

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Admin Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Administrator Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Location: N. Ireland Status: Offline Points: 390	Post Options Post Reply Quote Admin Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: gelato problems- melting too quickly Posted: 15 Aug 2018 at 12:30am
	1. What temperature is the cabinet that the sorbet served at? 2. Please give me some information on the stabiliser used. Your mix has a FPDF of around 25-assuming stabiliser does not contain sugars. This will give a hard sorbet if served at -18C. With the amount of stabiliser added I would expect this to take some time to get soft! Commercial sorbet stabilisers should reduce melting rate hence my query re the stabiliser used. Your mix is also slightly too sweet! You need to reduce the sucrose a little and replace it with dextrose. This will also make the sorbet softer and may increase melting rate if the stabiliser is not changed.

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sooan Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group	Post Options Post Reply Quote sooan Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 Aug 2018 at 9:33am
	hello ~ i have a question to you i made mango sorbet gelato but my customer said "this gelato melt so easy " i have to figure out that whah is problem so could you help me about it? my recipe was like that mango 30%, sugar 20%, water45%,lemon juice 1%, Stabilizer 3.5%

Admin Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Administrator Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Location: N. Ireland Status: Offline Points: 390	Post Options Post Reply Quote Admin Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 May 2011 at 8:53pm
	Marcus I have updated the On Line spreadsheet to enable the correct values of MSNF and fat to be calculated using cream of 27% fat. Have a go at doing the calculations. I have looked at the new results. As discussed your sugar concentration is too high. The fat concentration is now closer to what one would expect for the 'gelato' you make. We have already discussed emulsifier. Note that your MSNF is lower than optimum. But your mix adds up to more than 100 so caution is needed. Happy to PM a screen shot of the calculations.

pingo Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 03 Mar 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8	Post Options Post Reply Quote pingo Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 May 2011 at 2:42pm
	Thank you. The cream I use is 27% fat.

Admin Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Administrator Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Location: N. Ireland Status: Offline Points: 390	Post Options Post Reply Quote Admin Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 01 May 2011 at 10:17pm
	I have responded to your PM. Was away last week. What is the fat content of your cream?

Admin Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Administrator Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Location: N. Ireland Status: Offline Points: 390	Post Options Post Reply Quote Admin Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 12:27am
	RE your PM: 1. The gelato recipe is at http://dairyscience.info/forum/5-low-fat-gelato-mix_topic223.html You put the specifications in to the free calculator- then add your ingredients. The calculator will tell you how much to add. 2. I have put a calculator at www.dairyscience.info/a1mixes.asp to enable you to add the weights of your ingredients to the spreadsheet. Note this is set up for a 100 kg batch. You can use this to work out the MSNF and Fat concentrations in your mix. You can use this information to calculate if your mix is balanced

Admin Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Administrator Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Location: N. Ireland Status: Offline Points: 390	Post Options Post Reply Quote Admin Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 16 Apr 2011 at 10:43am
	Post your % ingredients and I will work out your % MSNF etc for you on the forum. Note I will only do this once and for education purposes only. I will then use the free lite mix calculator to tell you whether your mix is balanced. The calculators on this site take % MSNF, % Fat targets or specifications and tell you how much ingredient you need to get this % mix composition. If you do not work to a mix specification, then you need to take a step back and using your ingredients work out what MSNF etc they contribute to your mix, only takes a few minutes with a spreadsheet. The subscription calculator can also be configured to work with whole milk powder (not currently enabled) but you need to make a small donation to use. This is not necessary for the moment. BTW I have posted a free gelato recipe that should work well on this forum. You could test this out however it uses 6% fat and some gelato makers prefer 5%. And Professor Doug Goff's Ice cream Ebook is an excellent free ice cream manufacturing resource.

pingo Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 03 Mar 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8	Post Options Post Reply Quote pingo Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Apr 2011 at 10:57pm
	Hi Michael, I find very difficult tu determine the % of fet, MSNF, etc. I am thinking now to order the calculator and I hope than it will be very easy. I have pasteuriser, dont have a homogeniser. I age my mix usually 12 hours cs i prepare the mix in evening and make ice cream in the next morning. It is almost imposible to measure the overrun cs when I put my ice cream out of freezer i directly serve it in my ice cream cabinet and cant count how much litters i get out. Thank you

Admin Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Administrator Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Location: N. Ireland Status: Offline Points: 390	Post Options Post Reply Quote Admin Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05 Apr 2011 at 11:31pm
	Patrik So you have had this problem from the start! Most ice cream problems are fairly easy to solve. However there is a good case for starting from the beginning! What mix composition are you using? % fat, % MSNF etc How do you prepare your ice cream mix e.g. how do you mix your ingredients? Do you have a homogeniser? Have you ever measured the % overrun? By formulating your mix correctly (using stabilisers and emulsifiers) and adjusting the overrun to 100% you should be able quite quickly to get good resistance to melting. Douglas Goff is an expert in ice cream microstructure and ice cream functional properties and you may find the summary of his work using the emulsifier polysorbate 80 helpful.

pingo Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 03 Mar 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8	Post Options Post Reply Quote pingo Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05 Apr 2011 at 5:38pm
	mr. Michael, I am so sory cs i couldnt responde, but I was very busy this week. I have had this problem since I work with ice cream. Now I worked on the temperature of ice cream when it comes out of the frrezer, so I let my ice cream longer into the freezer and it comes out so hard and configurate my cabinet in a very high temperature but still have theese troubels. With fruit based ice cream everything works perfect, the problem is only in the milk based. When I set my cabinet in a very high temperature, my ice creams become very very hard so I hardly scoot it, but it stil looses its shape. Thank you very much for you intereset. Patrik

Admin Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Administrator Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Location: N. Ireland Status: Offline Points: 390	Post Options Post Reply Quote Admin Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 Apr 2011 at 12:18am
	I note that you have not not responded to my last post? Have you resolved your problem? I have looked at my responses to you and have edited them a little. Because your gelato lost its shape so quickly my immediate reaction was to question the temperature you held your ice cream at and whether you were using a stabiliser. I presumed because you were not using an emulsifier that this melting was a new problem and not directly related to emulsifier use i.e. you were content with meltability in the past? If temperature of the gelato and stabiliser use are not the cause of your problem then your mix composition and the use of an emulsifier need to be investigated. I would be interested in hearing how your investigations are progressing?

Admin Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Administrator Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Location: N. Ireland Status: Offline Points: 390	Post Options Post Reply Quote Admin Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 8:38pm
	We need to start at the beginning! 1. What is your mix composition? 2. How do you 'mix' your ingredients. What heat treatment do you use? Do you homogenize your mix and if so for how long and at what pressure. Single/double stage homogenization? 3. How long do you age the mix before freezing? 4. Does your freezer add air to the mix during freezing? 5. What overrun do you get? 6. What temperature does your mix come out of the freezer? 7. What temperature is your storage freezer set at? 8. How long do you hold the gelato in the storage freezer before you take it out to serve? 9. Is this a new problem? 10. If everything was OK before have you changed anything? Some theory basic information for you to think about. Temperature This is fairly easy to eliminate but first I will explain why it is important. Pure water freezes at 0°C under standard conditions. Because of the high concentrations of substances, mainly sugars, in solution the freezing point of a typical ice cream mix is depressed and freezing starts at around -2 to -3°C. However this is only a partial freeze since the substances not frozen are now present at an even higher concentration in the unfrozen water, further depressing the freezing point. As the temperature drops, more water freezes and the freezing point of the unfrozen water gets lower and lower until a point is reached where the bulk of the water is frozen. Many ice cream freezers discharge product at a temperature between -3 and -9°C and will have around 50-60% of the water unfrozen (fig. 1 below). It will take the temperature reduced to around -18°C before the bulk of the water is frozen. Unless you have commercial cooling facilities this can take many hours. So you need to be quite certain that your temperatures are correct! By the way properly produced commercial ice cream properly conditioned can retain its shape in standardized melt tests for 30+ minutes. Fat does have a role in melt resistance; hence the importance of emulsifiers! You might find the review by Professor Goff (1997) interesting. He has explained that the optimal formation of fat structure in ice cream is responsible for many desirable ice cream quality characteristics including slowness of meltdown (Goff, 1997). In conventional continuous ice cream freezing two unit operations have a major influence of the final ice cream product namely whipping (crudely mixing the air into the ice cream) and freezing. To obtain good melting behavior (and other characteristics!) finely dispersed and narrowly distributed air bubbles and ice crystals have to be generated. Aging of mix In commercial ice cream manufacture the ice cream mix is cooled to temperatures of about 4 °C and cold aged for at least 4 hours. It is widely believed, and there is some research evidence, that aging contributes to resistance to melting amongst other benefits. Goff, H.D (1997). Colloidal aspects of ice cream - a review. International Dairy Journal, 7, 363–373.

pingo Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 03 Mar 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8	Post Options Post Reply Quote pingo Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Mar 2011 at 4:14pm
	Mr. Michael, in the begining I also thought that the problem was at the temperature of gelato coming out the freezer and than I started to let my gelato longer in the freezer to freeze it more. When my gelato comes out of the freezer it is very hard. I have a 130l pesteurizer and i calculated it very well and concluded that the percentage of my stabiliser is 0.65. Is it possible that my mix is not stabilised well? I mean by fat - sugar and MSNF? Can it cause this kind of difficulties? Thank you

Admin Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Administrator Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Location: N. Ireland Status: Offline Points: 390	Post Options Post Reply Quote Admin Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Mar 2011 at 6:16pm
	There is a strong case for using emulsifiers in ice cream generally (and they do influence melting and resistance to thermal shoc) but the fault you describe is unlikely to be linked to emulsifier use because of the rapid melting of your gelato ; it is most likely associated with stabiliser use Additionally I presume that the gelato is coming out of the freezer at the correct temperature? I will make a few suggestions. 1. Check that the stabiliser has been correctly incorporated into the mix- make sure it is in solution. 2. Double check your calculation and make sure the concentration is actually 0.65% and not 0.065%- sorry to say such an obvious thing! 3.Consider using another product, perhaps one that uses a blend of several stabilisers. Pl let me know how you get on.

pingo Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 03 Mar 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8	Post Options Post Reply Quote pingo Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 27 Mar 2011 at 2:11pm
	Thank you Michel for ur answer. Yes I use stabiliser, cca. 0,65%, it is Blanose, CMC gum. I have tried many ways, but id doesent works, as I put my gelatos out of freezer I make them look great, but after a couple of time they fall, like melting, they loose the look i give. Do i have to add less stabiliser? Would emulsifier help on this? hope to here from you soon. Thanks

Admin Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Admin Group Administrator Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Location: N. Ireland Status: Offline Points: 390	Post Options Post Reply Quote Admin Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 11:49pm
	(Note! When I originally posted this response I may have mixed up my response with another question dealt with through Email- this is an updated response) There are several reasons for ice crean melting quickly apart from too much sugar. These include not ageing for long enough, very low fat mixes, not using the optimal emulsifier and low overrun. Use of stabilisers can also help reduce melting rate.

pingo Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 03 Mar 2011 Status: Offline Points: 8	Post Options Post Reply Quote pingo Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 26 Mar 2011 at 10:12pm
	hello everybody, I need a little bit help. So please if anyone can give me a solution cs i have tried 100 ways but it doesent work, and i dont know what is the metter. so... as i have a very good freezer and also a perfect ice cream cabinet, I have troubles with my gelato decorations. As i put it out of the freezer i can make it to look really really good, but a few time later my gelatos start to melt down (loose the form i give and start to flow). I have tried to reduce the sugar, but then my ice cream looses on texture. Woul emulsifier help on this? cs i dont use emulsifier! Or is it that i have too much solids on my gelato? anybody any solution? Thanks in advance!